Sustainable restaurant design with David Chenery
sustainable interiors
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circular economy
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restorative restaurants
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sustainable interiors 〰️ circular economy 〰️ restorative restaurants 〰️
Welcome to episode 55 of the Green & Healthy Places podcast in which we discuss the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and hospitality.
I’m your host, Matt Morley, founder of Biofilico healthy buildings, and in this episode I’m in the UK talking to David Chenery of Object Space Place, a sustainable interiors company specialising in hospitality environments.
Our conversation covers the Restorative Design Framework that David has developed with his business partner over the past five years, the role of circular economy principles in restaurant design, designing out waste and lowering embodied carbon while still delivering memorable customer experiences, as well as the pros and cons of sustainability assessments for restaurant spaces.
David is an interior architect by trade, a considered thinker and someone with a rapidly growing client list that may suggest an inflection point in the UK restaurant industry’s relationship with sustainability.
FULL TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS COURTESY OF OTTER.AI - excuse any typos!
Matt Morley
David, welcome to the show. It could be really useful for anyone considering a similar shift in their own career to understand how you integrated sustainability into your restaurant interior design work? What was that process of going from being ‘just’ an interior architect / designer into someone with a real focus on sustainable restaurant interiors?
A transition to sustainable restaurant interior design
David Chenery
It's certainly not that there was one particular lightbulb moment, it definitely was more of a gradual process, slowly feeling more and more uneasy and more and more uncertain. We've been going for 11 years now and we started out designing a lot of hospitality.
Then over the years, even though we always tried to do things with integrity, we cared how we treated people we were working with and about designing things with proper materials, avoiding materials on a red list and so on but we never really got to grips with what ‘good’ restaurant interior design would actually look like.
We started working with the Sustainable Restaurant Association about five or six years ago, and we just really started interrogating those questions and started thinking, What does a good restaurant mean?
what is restorative restaurant design?
Andrew Stephen, the CEO of the SRA at the time, threw out a question to us - he'd always wondered what a restorative restaurant would look like, how would that actually be designed? And whilst he gave it to us as a throwaway question, for us, it really stuck, to the point whereby we developed a whole design framework, what we called “the restorative design framework” around trying to solve that.
In the first instance, we boiled it down really simple - to design places that give more than they take. So I guess the point to emphasize there is that we were overwhelmed by the complexity and not sure what this sustainability thing was, and is a SKA rating enough? Is BREEAM enough?
Matt Morley
The idea of almost being overwhelmed with the whole theme of sustainability, and perhaps not quite knowing where to start is something I hear from clients as well, they're sort of looking for guidance. And by the time someone picks up the phone, I sense something has nudged them in that direction. And it might not be the core tenet of their brand, But there's enough out there, enough prompts to make them think about how they can integrate sustainability into whatever they're doing, for example, a boutique hotel group. What about in your sector of restaurant design, would you say the same as true there? Or are there more restaurants that have sustainability at their heart of their proposition?
a shift to sustainability in the UK restaurant sector
David Chenery
Well, I mean, it's one of the reasons we now call ourselves sustainable hospitality designers to begin with, we kind of shied away from that a little bit. Because if you stick your hand up and say you are sustainable, then you know, you're putting yourself in the firing line. And ultimately, you know, once you dig into it, and start pulling all those threads around sustainability, you realize that if you do anything in this country, the UK, you immediately have a carbon footprint, six to 10 times higher than anywhere else in the world.
So can you ever say what you're doing is sustainable. But we realized that to begin with, we had to educate our clients and bring sustainability into our projects. But the commercial reality is that building stuff is hard at the best of times. And unless someone comes to you with that sustainability agenda, it is very often going to get kicked to the side as you go along.
So we had to sort of stick our hands up and say we are focused on sustainable hospitality design, which therefore means we now attract the people that want to pursue that agenda. So I guess it's hard because we have pushed ourselves to live in this bubble. But I definitely think there's been a huge shift in understanding and even more so in in the last year or so.
We're now being approached by restaurant groups who don't make big claims around sustainability. But they might have, you know, 5 to 10 restaurants already and they're aware of as they continue to grow they want to do that in a way that is going to minimize their environmental impact. And they don't quite know how, like you suggest, but they're trying to find some people to help make it happen.
Matt Morley
So I see similarities there between, say, the office sector and hotels, where it's about a soft sustainability, so it's not absolutely defining them, like, say, a hard sustainability brand that's completely committed to the cause. And yet, they know that they need to make baby steps in that direction. But then that raises the question of, where does it start and end if it is a sustainable design that you're creating for a restaurant?
And clearly there are these rating systems, whether it's BREEAM for a new build, or SKA that you mentioned in the past around your interiors on the restaurant work. Did you initially rely on those certification systems more and step away from them over time?
sustainable restaurant design certifications
David Chenery
I think what we've realized when we created our own design framework, so that the assessment systems are rigorous, independent, and they make a lot of sense. And we had to learn to work in BREEAM, how to work in the SKA system, definitely.
It's only through doing that, that you might start to see some of the the flaws, or some of the shortcuts or the kind of bureaucracy associated with them. If you have a one-off independent restaurant somewhere in the country, that won’t have a huge budget for such assessments so they're just going to run it all directly themselves.
That's a very different approach than trying to do something for someone like a Wagamama who's got hundreds of outlets around around the country and has processes in teams and all this stuff.
So our framework acknowledges that. And we really will tailor it to the client we're working with. Ultimately, we want it to be as sustainable as possible. But we know that different clients will come with a different level of ambition. So we might work with a chef like Chantelle Nicholson for Apricity, where she wanted to push as hard as she could, you know, we were really trialing the circular economy ideas in terms of the materials, we were measuring the embodied carbon to get that as low as we could, the landlord Grosvenor, were really behind us pushing that as hard as they could.
So there was a lot of energy in that same direction whereas we might work with Gail’s bakeries, you know, who are beautiful, and they care about sustainability. And they care about the social side and the environmental. And they're also doing about 30 sites a year. So there is a commercial reality to the speed and the cost of doing those.
So we are working as hard as we can within that commercial framework to make the best decisions. And that's to be honest, what we quite enjoy is that we are constantly being challenged not to just live in an ideal dream world. But actually some of it is very, very ambitious and we can set a new benchmark in sustainability and sometimes it’s more about raising the bar slightly.
measuring sustainability in restaurant interior design
So I think assessments are really interesting when it comes to the measurement, this is really what we're talking about the measurement of sustainability. I think there's some interesting nuances to dive into there. The first one we've realized is that quantitative measurement, the idea of numbers almost always comes down to carbon, because that's the thing we can reduce down to a number, the bigger the scale of the organization we're dealing with, the more you need numbers, because it's just really hard for everyone to grasp the qualitative, multifaceted layer of sustainability without numbers. So it's, it's not really a good enough representation.
But carbon is really, really useful as a tool. You know, I always say that carbon is to sustainability, what calories are to a healthy diet, you know, I could eat 1000 calories a day, and I would lose weight. But if it was all chocolate, and I did no exercise, that is not a healthy diet. In the same way, carbon is an oversimplification of all the other stuff around you know, VOCs Indoor Air Quality and the social side of things which we can go into as well.
But if the planet managed to get down to dealing with that carbon, we'd be in a lot better place. So I do think that that's thing with the conservative side. And then the other is you've mentioned with the assessment systems A good thing about those are that they are more qualitative They have much more, you know, many more features within facets within them that measure things like the air quality or looking at glare or their staff wellbeing, all these sorts of things. So that's the way we sort of broke those two things down, when it comes to measurement, I think it's kind of worth understanding the differences of those.
Matt Morley
And then to some point in that process, you felt comfortable enough to set your own working model of how you go about integrating these various themes and topics into something that you put your name to.
developing principles and a process for designing sustainable restaurant interiors
David Chenery
Absolutely. What we realized was, firstly, when we started looking at the assessment systems at the beginning, we think, how do we make this a sustainable design? What does that even mean? If we get SKA gold or BREEAM Excellent? And then coming across the circular economy and the Ellen MacArthur Foundation website in particular. That's why I can't get happy with this idea is because it's still within the scope of one project. And we need to understand the ripple effects and the circular flows of everything else, and how stuff goes together.
So our framework then becomes about that, because we see that as a bigger understanding of the material construction design ecosystem. So I think that's just a more intelligent place to start as well for us because it then leads us to ask a lot of different questions. And what we start to look at a design approach that is slightly different, based on a set of principles.
the problem with sustainability assessment systems
The danger of an assessment system is you end up with this huge checklist and a really complex spreadsheets. And you know, you've got to get however many points out of however many other points, and then you start getting tactical about what decisions you're making, right? Because you got to get to the certain levels. And if we just get a couple more, we can get up to silver, and it becomes a different weird game, that clearly is better than doing nothing. But it's not engaging with the core idea.
You know, and I think for us, we wanted to step outside of that and think, Well, if we really want to make a difference here, how are we going to do it. And the other realization is that it's all very good saying, let's get the lowest embodied carbon we can. But if you sit down with a blank piece of paper and try and work out let's just design something low carbon it's almost impossible, you can't design to that it's meaningless.
So we need a design strategy. And that's why circular economy is so good for us.We've managed to prove that if we design out waste and pollution, if we design to keep materials in use for as long as possible, if we get reclaimed chairs and tables, if we sand the existing floorboards, if we expose the walls, if we use the right type of paint, if we cut the staircase up and make it into a wall cladding, that guess what we managed to reduce the embodied carbon of that of typical fit out by 45%, just by doing that for a high end restaurant in central London.
So that connection for us was kind of a key moment of saying, well, we can design this way we have this strategy of designing out waste, of thinking about principles. But the point in developing the framework was, it gives us a way of working. And I think without that, that's where so many designers feel a bit lost, because we don't know how to interrogate those decisions and ask enough questions.
If someone can give you an EPD, that says, this has three kilograms of CO2, and another one says this one's got four. If that's all you know, then you're just going to pick the three, even if it comes with all kinds of other compromises on the sustainability, or huge water usage, or all kinds of all kinds of stuff. So that's why we had to develop a framework and we certainly don't have all the answers, I wouldn't sit here and say, we have it all down. The point of having the framework and the point of us applying that to these projects is that we are learning every day.
consultants for a sustainable restaurant interior project
Matt Morley
Maybe that opens discussion then around how far your role goes in terms of the design of the space? Typically when I’m looking at say an entire healthy building project, whether it's new build construction or refurbishment, I'm often on a call as one of 10+ different consultants from a QS, to MEP, to project management, lifts and so on… but with a restaurant are you operating effectively as a One Stop solution or are there others that you might bring into the mix with you?
David Chenery
Again, it's a question of scale - a one off independent restaurant with a focused brief, lean budget, then yes we might do most of that sustainability work.
If we didn't have a sustainability consultant, we often with a social enterprise called Bio Regional who can do assessments for carbon, SKA or bespoke metrics that we're developing around the circular economy.
And then on the MEP side, we are definitely not MEP consultants. So particularly operational carbon, that energy efficiency piece, we would look to partner with someone like MESH (net zero carbon building performance) then a landlord or or contractor may have their own people they will bring along, but on smaller projects, what we'll find is you will tend to have specific conversations with, say, the HVAC contractor, or the plumber, or the electrician, to see what we can do with them to get things better. And if it goes slightly a notch above that, then we will have an MEP consultant, similar to ourselves, who will give input on that.
But that does really depend on the scale of a project and your average high street restaurant of 3000 square foot is probably unlikely to have that person. So you know, that's probably where we develop our knowledge, particularly often they're contractors or installers within the industry, that can have a similar mindset to us.
If I go into my garden here, and I pick a pear off the tree, I don't need a carbon lifecycle assessment or a sustainability consultant to tell me that that's a good choice. You know, there are some straightforward, common sense principles that we can apply.
The Pareto principle applies suggests 80% of the impact will come from 20% of the decision. So you know, if we're looking at the water systems, we know even just from looking at the SKA systems that if they are the same 5-7 things you do in terms of water management, such as low flow taps, and WCs, leak detection systems, you do those right and you’ll get most of the impact anyway.
Circular economy principles and end-of-life in a sustainable restaurant
Matt Morley
In the past I’ve studied green and health building certifications from LEED, to WELL, FITWEL, and so on following the checklist. And then at some point, you just start, you just start freestyling without needing to hold on to the sides of pool, let’s put it that way. Then you start to combine elements or leave certain bits out, knowing that you're getting 20% of the value.
So what about end-of-life phase with your restaurant designs? How do your clients manage that?
David Chenery
Well, I guess since we've been focused on doing this, fortunately, nothing we've designed has had to be taken apart. So you have to say that that's theoretical in a way and it's just a really important acknowledgement as a designer that most restaurant fit outs will last about five years whether it's because the concept has failed or they want to make changes or simply update the look and feel of the space. Even the average building gets fitted out 20 to 30 times in its lifetime.
So, yeah, we haven't had to be challenged on that yet. But we are aware when we're designing, you know, whether it's a counter going in or material finishes on the floor? How is this going to come out again? Can we use particular materials that are in as useful a format as possible? Can we avoid cutting tiles?
Last week, I was looking into an issue for Gail’s, the difference between a timber floor and a tiled floor. Now at end of life, those both become quite difficult. You know, we spent two hours talking to a tile manufacturer about how realistic is it actually that we're going to get these tiles up, and then once that tile adhesive goes down, are those coming up in pieces, or are they going to be able to be reused? Again, if you can get them up whole, they're still going to have all the adhesive on the back. And it's going to be such a labor intensive process to take that off, it's probably unrealistic to use that for anything other than aggregate, which isn't really good enough.
We need to as an industry find a better solution for that timber again. Likewise, if we're looking at a herringbone floor, now that can stay in longer, you can re-sand that, you can refinish it, you can re-stain it, it's going to have a lower carbon footprint, if you take the carbon sequestration into account and having carbon negative score effectively. But again, you're not because that has to be glued down in a commercial setting, you have to glue that timber down no matter what you do, because it's going to move over time. So therefore, you're not going to be able to take that floor up, even if that's in 30 years time, for example, without and be able to reuse those elements quite easily. So some of those questions I don't have the answer to at all.
In many cases, if you do something of quality, you're maximizing the chance it can stay in there for a long time. But yeah, it's it is a challenge, I really do think it is, you know, we need to understand how materials come apart. Again, we need to design for disassembly, so that elements can be taken apart using mechanical fixings wherever we can, rather than glue - that is a general principle. But you know, in, in commercial or hygienic environments, like restaurants where we're talking about cleaning down every day that that can be quite difficult as we come up against standard best practices.
Matt Morley
I think that sort of transparency and honesty is, is really the only position any of us in this game can take because you know, we're all always learning, but simply doing the best we possibly can at any given time. Right? And as long as it's a sort of circular but forward motion, we're heading in the right direction.
restaurant design trends and sustainability
What about restaurant design in general, when you look at what's happening in the industry, particularly in London, but around the UK, Are you broadly optimistic of where it's going?
David Chenery
I try and kind of cultivate quite a stoic mindset but we will do everything we can to make it better. I think that depends on which side of the bed I've got up in the morning. I think I'm nervous how everyone has rebounded straight back into growth mode After COVID. I think people are just trying to build things. And I don't know if we've necessarily learned the lessons we could have done. But I'm happy that initiatives like Net Zero Now and the Zero Carbon Forum are getting more traction. I'm happy that, you know, the SRA is, is getting good traction with its members.
Right now, I honestly believe it's probably like a five year problem. And I don't think you can be running your business, for the benefit of your stakeholders and shareholders. with them front of mind, if you're not tackling this issue of sustainability, because you're just not building a resilient business,
So if you don't dial back in and actually look at your business model and look at your supply chain, and look at how you run your buildings and your energy usage and all of that stuff, you're just going to have a tougher and tougher time in the years to come. I don't believe The whole industry has got that and agrees with that. I think there are a number of people who still want to think it's business as usual but maybe a little bit more green. - we need to move faster than that!
David Chenery’s current sustainable restaurant interior design projects
Matt Morley
What have you got going on at the moment? What do you have in your pipeline?
David Chenery
We're certainly fully booked until September at the moment, which is great. I mean, there's Gail’s - a great client for us. And we're doing a number of new sites for them - we just opened one in Epping recently. There's actually a hair salon project we're working on as well.
We've been approached by some other people like L'Oreal to help them apply our framework to a hair salon. So there's a flagship I'm working on with them at the moment, which I'm not actually allowed to talk about But that will be quite high profile in central London. And then alongside that, we've got some some independent restaurants, we've got a six tenant food hall we're working on.
But also we're doing a number of more consultancy pieces now, as you can probably imagine. So some of the larger groups, were talking to them about how we can bring these principles and this framework to their sites, whether we end up designing them ourselves or not. So that's quite an interesting conversation, how we can educate internal property teams on carbon literacy or this disjunction between net zero targets and daily operations.
Matt Morley
Very good. Well, it sounds really positive. So people are looking to follow along or see your news and updates. What's your chosen format?
David Chenery
Yeah, LinkedIn is definitely best. That's definitely the place to find me.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidchenery-sustainablehospitalitydesign/