botanical design in architecture and interiors with wayward plants

the green & healthy places podcast explores the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and hotels

Episode 059 took us to London, UK to chat with Tom Kendall, Associate Director of Wayward Plants, a botanical design collective on a mission to bring urban communities back into contact with the natural world.

Our conversation covers their work creating biophilic public benches that convey a message about inner city air quality, large scale plant donations as an ethical business practice, designing botanically inspired playgrounds, their work designing a botanical memorial for nelson mandela in liverpool and their nature-inspired sustainable interior concept for a stella mccartney store.

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lemonary by wayward plants

Matt Morley

Let’s start with a question about your ‘better air benches’. There are so many different ways of bringing nature back into the city nowadays, it is one of the things that really inspires me personally and I think we share those same values.

How can something as seemingly banal as a public bench become much more functional and play an actual role in purifying the air within the city?

improving Air quality in the public realm

Thomas Kendall

Yes. So this was a collaboration with business improvement districts (BID) down in south London. And it was kind of interesting because it didn't start out as a bench, the initial proposal was supposed to be a gateway, it was supposed to be something big and grand.

After some really interesting discussions with the BID, we decided to change it to try and in a way take up more space. And to become more purposeful and useful within the public realm.

We knew there were other people who were doing other kinds of more ‘threshold gateway-esque strategies’ in London then anyway. So we wanted to try and find a way to integrate ourselves in a little bit more of a purposeful environment, we also knew that we were going to initially be sited in Borough Market, which is obviously this amazing sort of threshold and space of exchange, of constant flux and change.

We needed something that had an element of transition to it. And for us, this idea of a simple bench was I guess, the key that unlocked that for us, we wanted something that was going to be colorful, something that was going to be very simple yet interactive. And also obviously, that one of the key parts of us has to be something green.

Unusually for us, we ended up working with a monoculture of ivy in this instance. So we filled these very simple mesh cages of benches and we filled them with English IV, which is known to be really good for air quality. And we knew we were never going to fill them with enough to actively change the air quality. But for us, it was very much about raising awareness, which is also why we didn't want to be stuck in one site.

So whilst we started out in Borough Market, the whole point with the benches was that they were mobile, they could go out and fill space. Four years later, now, I'm still getting texts from friends being like, “Oh, I just saw your bench on this street” or “I just sat in this square and had my lunch on your bench”. There's something so wonderfully human and intuitive about them, that people really warm to.

borough market, london

Healthy buildings, outside air quality and raising public awareness

Matt Morley

So let me dig into that a little bit... If we had, say, a closed environment such as a healthy building interior, or specifically a workplace environment where we might be aiming for a much more tangible set of data and outputs. For example purifying the indoor air and improving productivity but when you're working in the public realm, perhaps the sheer scale of the problem is so huge that that you're never going to be able to make a meaningful impact on the air quality in that particular area of London. So do you set out with a different mission in a sense, just to raise awareness amongst the general public?

Thomas Kendall

Yeah, that was definitely one of the client’s key concerns with this was to have a wider discussion on air quality in Southwark obviously, it's a huge conflict points, so many congested roads, curbside deliveries, all day long and the amount of pollution varies so much, even down to like the huge spike in Christmas, because of Amazon deliveries to everybody's offices.

We knew there was a problem. but we only had a budget of £30,000. You're not going to solve all of the borough’s pollution problems for that clearly! There's there's always two strands - one is just the simple factor of enjoyability. In the public realm, the basic user interface of creating something that people will regularly use and then there is the lesson to be learned from that brief experience.

It's not we try not to make it like a giant placard, you know, we don't want to put a big billboard in front of you saying air pollution is wrong, it's usually a little bit more passive or subtle. So on the benches, we included a series of educational quotes or facts about the area and the pollution levels or different plants that can benefit our health and the environment.

air quality monitors and the role of data

We also had a series of sensors that were up for six months on them that were measuring the pollution in the different areas of particular, in particular, and that they sort of as they moved around, there was some data that was collected, just showing the amount of pollution in these different spaces, that was also then streamed to the business improvement district’s website.

In this way we did manage to get a really interesting look at the pollution levels, and how just moving two streets away from the main thoroughfare the amount of pollution would lower and there's now actually a green map that's been created of walks around Southwalk based not just on that data but on a much broader series of investigations to create different pathways to get to work or school for example avoiding pollution.

moor lane community garden by wayward plants

botanical design interventions in the community for added biophilia

Matt Morley

Let’s shift onto the Moor Lane Community Garden project and the idea of creating or co-designing effectively, and architectural interventions in the form of a garden in the local community as a way to bring an element of nature back into that that particular corner of the city. Talk to us a bit about that.

Thomas Kendall

Yes, Moor Lane was a really interesting one when it comes to engagement, because there was already a small community garden there and a huge future proposal involving the whole redevelopment of that particular street. So we were initially invited in actually as a mediator between the City of London and a series of local residence groups, where there seemed to be a bit of a disconnect happening.

Our first role there was to act as a middle person to help them communicate, and to find out what was missing, what wasn't being communicated effectively, and where things might be improved. Initially, we just having a lot of conversations, we didn't even dive into design. In fact the first three meetings were all about conversation and communication. And out of that we discovered that the future proposal had zero relevance to the site and zero relevance to the community. That was their problem.

We were eventually asked to not only come up with a green intervention for the site but also to challenge the entire future proposal for it. The future scheme had no relevance to the Barbecan, and it didn't reference its architecture, it didn't reference the community.

Not only were they concrete objects that we created in the end, but they were also etched in to exposed aggregate in the same way that the Barbican had previously been hand carved. There were certain color themes inspired by the area too as well as referencing old and new planting.

It was great for us, because as well as these conversations, we got to then invite people in to do planting in the project, too. So we had a really nice hands on aspect to it beyond the design and engagement. And then following up on that, obviously, there was a big report we put together that detailed every conversation, everything that had ever been said, as well as how it integrated into the designs.

Now in fact we're back on site, again, looking at how our designs have impacted it. And we're now redesigning the new planters, to include some of the details and motifs that the community thought was specifically poignant or interesting from what we did.

Even our own design got re-critiqued re-engaged with at the end of the whole thing, and the community groups came in and told us what they didn't didn't like about those and what was successful and what they would like to see go forward. It meant putting ourselves on the frontline to be critiqued.

sustainability and social responsibility in botanical design

Matt Morley

Is see that as being part of a wider concept of giving back and incorporating a community aspect into your work, which some could say is a version of corporate social responsibility (CSR) or ESG. It's certainly a cohesive approach within the overall framework of being a business working in the space of sustainability and biophilia that you to make an effort to, to give back via plants. Tell us about that.

Thomas Kendall

So this was something that started even before Wayward was Wayward. In a way, the very first thing that sparked this conversation for us was seeing a plant thrown out of a window in New York City, strewn across the street, it was incredibly dramatic, there was a couple shouting above, some sort of weird divorce argument I think!

Well, we picked up this plant from a broken home, we took it home, cared for it, brought it back to life, repotted it, and then we gave it to a friend. And the conversation we had with that friend was more in depth than I think most conversations we've ever had. And if a single plant had activated, this new conversation with somebody that we thought we knew quite well, we thought ‘well, maybe this is a thing’.

Plant donations as a way to give back through biophilia

It was an act of exchange and a way to use nature to explore human stories. And so we started off with one plant every year, we've gradually expanded on this. So moving to like 10 plants, 50 plants, 100 plants, so creating what we call ‘plant adoptions’, where we now invite people where we collect plants from unwanted homes, and we invite people into spaces, and they have to fill out an adoption form, and prove to us that they're going to be good plant parents by drawing or describing the home it's going to go to, and only once we deemed them a good plant parent will they then get the plant in exchange. And it's become this fantastic web. It's like exploring people's stories with gardens and nature. And it's not even just about filling out the form. Sometimes it's just the conversations that you have, again around these events.

We now use this as a tool for exploring public space and for large scale engagement. And so we also now give away through the same scheme, usually around 10,000 plants a year from the RHS Flower Show, Chelsea Flower Show, Hampton Court Flower Show, so we now give everybody about 10,000 plants a year to schools and community gardens, mostly sort of in and around London gradually gradually working our way out a little bit further afield as well.

Matt Morley

It's a really unique approach to giving back. We've collaborated on a biophilic design interiors project recently together and it was a very strong calling card for Wayward, being able to contribute to a greener, more ethical supply chain. create a supply chain and a network of consultants and other sort of service providers within that project.

Biophilic design and plants in kids playgrounds

I know that there's a playground that you're involved in recently, Asteys Row in London, I find playgrounds really interesting proposition they can often be so cold and heartless. But there's so many options simply by adding some biophilia and connecting the kids back to nature. Now, I often take inspiration from playgrounds I see in places like Germany, and Scandinavia, where they just seem to have completely reinvented what a kid's playground can look like. And then I see some other ones here, around me in Spain that look pretty, pretty frightening and harsh. But tell me about as these rows row playground because I know that was one you are deeply involved in yourself.

Thomas Kendall

Yeah, so Asteys Row was really interesting projct to be a part of because it was already embedded between two gardens in a way. So it's part of the New River Walk in the middle of Islington, London but when we first got faced with it, it was this very tarmac heavy, brutal, sad, grey crumbling space, a remnant from the 70s.

Again, through conversations with the locals, we started to gather stories about what it used to be the fact that there used to be speculations around streams running through it, there were a whole sort of weird little myths about who remembered what, but the key for us was this connection between the two existing gardens, and there's this amazing boulder garden that runs through part of the New River Walk right into where this playground space was. But there was no connection between it at all it was this is like they just sliced through it, and got rid of it.

rewilding the city for more biophilia

We saw it as an act of rewilding, we wanted to kind of bring this boulder garden back into fruition. It was also when we went on site with kids, as we did when we did our community engagement work for that we didn't want to get stuck in a local town hall talking about it, we went onto the playground. And we actually basically played with kids for half a day, in the space, both in the playground and up and down the area. So really, they we got the kids to take us on tours, rather than us going out taking them on tours.

We decided to take all the lessons learned from the existing garden, that was an amazing topography and landscape and bring that into the playground, whilst also having to handle all the many things that come with a playground, you know, health and safety issues, a ball court, which is never going to be the most appealing thing, especially on a sort of slightly tight Council budget. But it was we were actually really impressed with the way that the council really took the ideas on when we mentioned this idea of a boulder garden.

risk benefit analysis in healthy green playground design

We worked with a lot of amazing play safety inspectors as well, who brought the idea of a risk benefit analysis into the project. So we're no longer that concerned about a few falls or trips or hazards here and there. It's actually now about risk benefit analysis. So if the risk is great, but the benefit is greater, then that's actually deemed to be a positive thing.

And for me, the whole thing really it came out of very much replicating the existing landscape as well as learning from my own childhood, you know, I grew up on a farm near a beach. But there's sort of translation of how I played as a child. And my natural landscape. And the lessons I've learned from that, alongside working in talking with these children, and their appreciation of the natural landscape, sort of brought it all in.

Then we you know, as well as that, that, that's just the general topography, we then play with plants and planting as well on the site, we like introducing new trees, creating moments of play in interactions where the kids felt like they could disappear and hide from their parents and then reappear and emerge, even though they were never really out of somebody's sight. So it was a really nice way of integrating the whole of the History site as well as the way it was very much used by its existing community, and then just exaggerating it and and enhancing it.

Botanical design as part of biophilic design - an outdoor memorial project

Matt Morley

Some people might describe Wayward’s work outdoor biophilic design, others might call it, creative landscaping in some instances so you can go from a playground to something like the Nelson Mandela outdoor memorial project up in Liverpool where again, you're using nature for its mental wellbeing and quasi-spiritual benefits.

I think we all connect with nature on some level, often provoking feelings of calm for example. So how do you go about taking something like that and applying it to a memorial? And why in Liverpool?

Thomas Kendall

The Mandela project is an absolute privilege to work on, as you can imagine. And when we first got approached about this, we were a little unsure if we would be able to find our place within the project but when we started researching and reading, we discovered this amazing use that he himself had for gardens.

Within the prison that he was in, he used the gardens to grow food, both for himself and the other inmates because as you can imagine, the food was not particularly great on Robben Island all those years.Then he also used it as an act of exchange between them and the prison guards to allow books to come into the space. So he used it as this tool for both sustenance and education.

He would turn the quarries into temporary classrooms during lunch. They would then educate each other. And it was all through this exchange of edible foods for books and other educational materials.

In his act of kind of digging the garden over, and he had to grow plants, he'd also then be hiding his manuscripts. So the gardens were originally built, either just dug in the ground or dug into oil barrels, which would be cut in half as a very sort of simple on site piece of infrastructure. We've replicated these oil barrels in form and scale on site, there's going to be 32 of these simple cylinder shapes that are going to have his words on. And that's the reference and the way to Mandela and his approach to gardening.

What we were really keen on is that it wasn't just a memorial or just a public artwork, I don't think we will ever do just a public artwork, it will always have to be interactive, it will always have to be education, it will have to be a place that's accessible and inviting. And so very much in the way that he turned the quarry into a classroom we wanted to turn the island that this project is going to be on, in the middle of Prince’s Park in the middle of a lake and on this island, we wanted to turn it into essentially a theater, or at the very least an outdoor classroom that is active and engaging.

Even now, it's kind of amazing, we go into schools in Liverpool, and we've been doing workshops as well with kids there. And they already understand this at the ages of 9,10,11. They already understand this relationship that Liverpool had with Nelson Mandela. And they understand the importance of this. Hopefully, when they come to use the space, in the end, they will treat it as a classroom and as a theater and as a space to engage and learn and meet as a community. And not just as a memorial. But underneath it, there will still be his words gently carved in and around the space.

stella mccartney store, london botanical installation by wayward plants

botanical interior design narratives in sustainable retail

Matt Morley

It's an example of the role of narrative and big ideas that drive your projects Tom, there's always a lot going on behind it for anyone who's prepared to engage with that experience rather than just seeing the visual aspect, there's always an experiential component clearly.

When you're working indoors in an interior space of say 300 square meters in a retail store, such as the project you did for Stella McCartney, flagship, how do you go about trying to create that same experiential component and integrate those big ideas around bringing the outside world in through biophilia using certain types of plants? It must be a very different mindset, right?

Thomas Kendall

So in a way, there was a lot of similarities, they're both very personal projects, very much dealing in a way with the image of an individual. So obviously, Nelson Mandela, he had his particular approach to gardens and Stella McCartney, she herself has a very particular approach to the environment and sustainability.

With with Bond Street store, we knew that her interior design team were very much trying to explore something new, when it came to retail, they weren't just trying to create a store, what they really wanted to look at was how to integrate elements of her life. And her own experiences into the space.

There'd be a lot more personal conversations around her upbringing and growing up and how it started to translate into sustainable fabrics and finishes, as well as treating the whole building more like a home, there was a welcoming hallway, there's this almost sitting room upstairs.

This idea of a garden is core to any domestic situation, to the sense of the home. But then obviously incomplete counterintuitively to that we needed the kind of polish expected of a flagship store on London’s Bond Street.

So lots of the finishes and stuff that were going into the design of the store itself with the all this beautiful polished brass and concrete work and playing with materials and things there was a lot of process going on invited us to go right the other way and try and keep process to an absolute minimum and to really focus on very raw simple combinations of elements.

We were speaking to a lot about her father's Island up in Scotland and her relationship to stone, we proposed this idea of a boulder garden, right in the middle of the store, very weighty but at the same time relatively calm, sort of meditative. She felt a huge resonance with this idea. She's a big believer in sort of geological crystals and things as well.

The sustainability angle was important so we made sure that every stone in the place was sourced within the UK, carved within the UK, or the mosses either came from local growers, or were recycled from Chelsea Flower Show, and built into the garden. So then yeah, it became this very interesting conversation between the simple raw material of the stone and how to integrate it into into a beautiful green retail environment.

Matt Morley

It's a really unusual case study. And I think one that adds a lot of substance to your to your credentials, as well.

If people want to follow along and read more about what you're up to, where where's the best place for them to go, or to see what you're up to?

Thomas Kendall

Maybe just to have a look at our website https://www.wayward.co.uk/ we treat it like a live news feed as well, I have to confess, we're not the greatest on Instagram at the moment. But we're getting there slowly. We're too busy being outdoors rather than just online!

If you do want to get involved with any of our plant re-homing schemes as well. There's links on there that you can either sign up to as a school or community or as a volunteer. And yeah, usually for sort of have a look about usually around April or when there's usually some really good opportunities to come and volunteer and collect plants with us and enjoy the flower shows.

Thank you very much Matt.

https://www.instagram.com/waywardplants/

Biophilic design for cities with Dr Jana Soderlund

Welcome to episode 52 of the Green & Healthy Places podcast in which we discuss the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and hospitality today.

I’m your host, Matt Morley, founder of Biofilico healthy buildings and this time around I’m in Perth, Western Australia talking biophilic urbanism and biophilic cities with Dr. Jana Söderlund.

Jana did her PhD on biophilic design as an emergent social movement. She has an honours degree in environmental science and has spent her career as a sustainability consultant, environmental educator, tutor, lecturer, and presenter. 

She is a member of the global Biophilic Cities steering committee, Chair of Biophilic Cities Australia, Director of Biophilic Solutions and a Curtin University associate. Currently, she is a tutor for Oxford University in partnership with Pearson.

We discuss the history and origins of the biophilic design concept. the biophilia hypothesis, applying biophilia at an architectural and even urban planning scale; how biophilic design incorporates benefits for people and planet, wellbeing and sustainability; the benefits of biophilic design in schools and prisons, as well as the importance of beauty in biophilic design.

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Matt Morley

Welcome to the Green & Healthy Places podcast. Thanks for joining us today.

Dr. Jana Soderlund

Yeah, thank you, Matt, thanks for the opportunity to join you in this conversation.

Matt Morley

I’d like to understand how your concept of biophilic design has evolved over the years and how you currently define it. There are various models out there from multiple theorists who have attempted to pin it down and put it into 14 categories or what have you. What’s your take on it?

Dr. Jana Soderlund

OK best if I start from how it emerged, a little bit of the history of biophilic design, because that really frames how I view it now.

So it started with Erich Fromm, a psychoanalyst in the 60s, who wrote a book called ‘The Heart of Man’, he posited that as humans, we suffer an anxiety about a separation from nature. And in seeking to overcome this anxiety, we go down two pathways - we have a choice regressive or progressive response.

The regressive is where there's necrophilia, and you controlled by religion and rules, you suppress that anxiety while the progress path is what he calls the Buddha path about altruism and overcoming this anxiety, and connecting with nature. And that's where Biophilia sits as a love of life.

Then E.O. Wilson went in, and he spent a period, immersed deeply in nature then wrote a book called Biophilia talking about that connection he felt with nature.

Then he and Stephen Kellert got together and came up with the ‘Biophilia hypothesis’ that as human beings, we are innately connected to nature, it's evolutionary, we respond to nature and all the patterns, forms, shapes, materials, smells, sights, sounds of nature.

Kellert gather a diverse group of academics , to discuss how can we bring biophilia into our cities and biophilic design emerged from that!

Those ‘14 patterns of biophilic design’ by Bill Browning at Terrapinn live in three categories but it’s not just greenery, but you know, the materials and the shapes and the forms and, and the patterns. all count too, even birdsong, places offering prospect and refuge.

So biophilic design to me is about integration and connection, you know, so integrating all of this aspects of nature as much as we can to create a connection with the place we inhabit.

You know, it's like in zoos where we used to keep animals in concrete cages with bars - they didn't do well there. So zoos now go to great lengths to recreate a more natural habitat, and animals do far better! If you you extend that thinking for us as humans living in cities.. well, it would be nice to live in something a bit more natural.

Matt Morley

So you've introduced that idea of the Biophilia hypothesis, and specifically biophilic design being applied at scale, at an urban planning level - yet I think it often gets picked up in the media as photos of lots of plants in someone's house, and you call that biophilic design, or, frankly, the same in an office building.

What's fascinating about your work is how you're applying it. Not just architectural, but almost city planning or urbanism level. So talk to us about how biophilic design can translate to not just buildings, but neighbourhoods or cities.

Dr. Jana Soderlund

Ah, look, there's some great examples of this globally too. One thing I like is the use of colonnades, there's a hotel in Singapore, the Pickering Park Royal Hotel, and that has this beautiful space in the CBD, beautiful streetscape of colonnades going down that evokes walking through a forest, it's a real biophilic experience, it's got strip layered wood and different greenery.

So I think that's the thing with biophilic design is that, there does tend to be this tendency to just think it's greenery, but it's just so much more, you can create a really biophilic place without any nature, you know, green nature, you know, plants and so forth in there.

As far as taking it beyond the building to scale. I really like the example of Malmo in Sweden that have created rain gardens. So all trapped stormwater is funnelled into canals, people can walk by for a real connection to nature, and enhanced biodiversity.

Kampung Admiralty in Singapore is a mixed use facility. So it's got transit right there. You can walk in and it's right from the start. It's got rain gardens and greenery and filtration ponds. it's all one big open air meeting place. They've got a pharmacy and supermarkets and medical centre and a big hawkers market with food stalls. And it's about eight storeys and on each floor, they've put in rain gardens and filtration ponds to manage the water.

Then there's sort of connecting walkways there to go over to aged care units.So when you go across into these aged care units, and look back at this eight story mixed use development, you just see a wall of green, it's just growing!

There's greater community engagement, and, you know, increased wellbeing and mental health and so forth, where, you know, you get that whole neighbourhood is more livable. it helps stormwater management and reduces urban heat and increases biodiversity, you know, so you get these multiple benefits that flow from creating a whole neighbourhood, precinct or city..

Matt Morley

I think what you're doing there is, is showing how biophilic design is something I've always felt that it somehow bridges the worlds of sustainability, and wellbeing. So planet, people - bringing benefits to both and you've switched from talking about the human aspects of the wellbeing, and then at the same time we're doing this in terms of reducing the environmental impact in terms of reducing the urban heat island.

So do you see, in a sense, almost added benefits of working at scale beyond typically with both Biophilia or an interior project, it tends to be more about the human aspect, we can reduce the sustainable or that the environmental impact in terms of the materials and what have you, but it's always limited, right? Because there's only so much we can do. But you're suddenly able it seems to talk on a much wider scale, and to be able to talk about perhaps a city wide approach to reduce environmental impact and increase sustainability, right, that sort of opens up a whole other discussion.

Dr. Jana Soderlund

You were I think it's a really important part. And this is something when I present or meet with people I really try and push home is the multiple benefits. Because often, there will be, you know, something implemented like a green roof, right. And the initial driver will be stormwater management. And once it like an you're just download this has happened in Washington, and a lot of North America use green roofs to reduce their stormwater. So and once the green roof is in place, then all the other benefits are suddenly discovered, you know, of like the Chicago City Hall, the iconic green roof that was put in the mayor may, you know, built that had it installed because of excessive heatwave in Chicago, a lot of people died, so he wanted to call the city. So he built that. On the City Hall, it was next to the country Hall, like they share the same roof top Chicago County. And so they were able to study the benefits as far as you know, the cooling and reducing energy consumption, but by doing that, they also discovered what it meant for them to have access to this roof. And when I saw it, it looked it was like a sort of patch of dry weeds, you know, because it was heading into winter. But it was beautiful because you know, I think we can also see the seasons and that's really important.

As people discover these multiple benefits, but that's the really important thing for people to understand that by installing or utilising biophilic design, you're addressing a lot of social benefits, you know, you really help with mental health and wellbeing and that's a big thing at the moment, like, I know, in COVID, so many people found the place they they went to, they sought out green places, you know, because reduce stress, but also maybe help them feel a bit connected in a time of isolation.

So we have all the human aspects, increased community engagement, and walkability and, you know, you can do density better, like, by doing it well, and clever utilising biophilic, design like, like milma. So, you know, you have these multiple social, and then you have the multiple environmental benefits, like stormwater management and increase of biodiversity, and reducing urban heat, and, you know, helping with carbon reduction. And, you know, or all these other food security is also a big, big one, because we're able to grow food on green roofs or around.

So, you know, there's Yeah, I think it's really important to look at the multiple benefits, because in the business case gets made, you know, really strong, because that's a lot of the pushback, oh, it's going to cost more to do things, this is often with, you know, green roofs, and so forth, it's going to cost more and the maintenance burden, once the multiple benefits are understood, you know, then it does make a stronger business case, and, and it helps, you know, with general health, so reducing urban heat, so you get less people hospitalised with heat, stress and so forth, and it reduces crime. They've done studies to show that when, you know, there's nature or biophilic designed place, crime goes down, people feel more altruistic as well. You know, it's it's, yeah.

Matt Morley

And the successes that you're seeing around the world, have they typically led by private businesses? Or is it more of a top down approach where city planning needs to be engaged as well? Is it a combination of the two?

Dr. Jana Soderlund

It is a combination of the two, like, there's been by both both happen sometimes, I've seen that community driven, and but this is where they need to work with government, I guess, to have enabling policies, like, I know, places where community gardens have been started by people, you know, and, or they've wanted to, you know, design a house with a green roof or have it a bit more biophilic, or whatever, and they can be, you know, bureaucracy and, and supporting policies that that bump up against, it can be hard work.

So the idea is where government can help community by having enabling policies for them. You know, it's, it's also like, in some places like Chicago, to do the green roofs, they did theirs to show that it could be done for developers. And then they put it into policy. And developers,And sometimes he said that was spitting mad, but now they don't have to regulate it.

Now, everyone expects their green roof, and they've realised the multiple benefits that have come to them as developers. So there are places where yes, you do need that strong leader, you know, the local champion to go this is what we have to do, and now suffered the pushback.

But in other places, it's community wanting to do something different or have a better neighbourhood or you know, be able to create something where they can connect and community are great at self organising places and you know, we've got To give credence to the wisdom of the masses, you know, so yeah, that I think it you know, it varies from place to place, really, you know, and so But ideally, it's all working when you get it coming together, you've got great synergies

Matt Morley

and looking at where it's been applied the different sectors in which you can see the most benefits. We there are some great examples of hospitals around the world and particularly interested in elderly care homes, for example, and how they can integrate Biophilia for people with dementia or heavy there's there's some really interesting work around that.

But what about at the other end of the age spectrum around schools? It's perhaps not so common, but I do see some examples. Occasionally, they pop up on my radar of schools trying to do things in a more biophilic or sustainable ways. How do you see that particular sector? Has it got big opportunity there? Is there much more work to do? Or what could the challenges be of taking that into the world of education?

Dr. Jana Soderlund

Yes, I think there are challenges. And I think there's great opportunities, and I think it's a really vital area to be implementing biophilic design and because, you know, I see and hear a lot of stories with our young people in schools and the mental health challenges, you know, the and mental health is decreasing in schools. And, you know, to help like, to go have a place, which is not stressful, it's the other thing that they've done studies about you to understand this is sort of a little bit where the prison work i I've done comes from is that hard age architecture stresses us, you know, where, where it's, it's just very industrial, you know, actually stresses us as people.

So you wanting these children to often go into classrooms like this, some classrooms in the world that don't even have windows they can see out of, and I know a lot of the American ones are like that. So you can imagine the stress, especially if they have a school shooter, you know, they they're hearing noise that can't see it's Yeah. It can be pretty hard. But what they've found is even having a few potted plants, increases learning rate rates, you know, because it helps improve cognitive processing.

So, and I think when when you've got something, you know, again, triggering that sense of connection and well being, when students can walk into a classroom, and feel that they do they learn better, they're less stressed, because even it's an innate sort of stress that can happen. And also, I've been working with school groups, and there's one that a new school built in my city. And it was just very industrial, minimal, sort of but touted as the great new school, and an extension is being done. A

nd the kids there want to have a lot of greenery, they want to incorporate more patents, be able to better windows and and just softly you talk to them all about biophilic design. And that's what they're wanting. And they've actually got funding this group. It's called Millennium kids. And they're working on incorporating biophilic design for schools. And I'm also sort of a friend or colleague, is he's interested in getting biophilic soundscapes into schools. And so globally there there has been a lot done you know, in getting some of this happening in schools with great results, like they're just finding learning rates to improve that behaviour improves like they're less disruptive and happier to come to school. I don't know if you remember Sandy Hook it was side of the mass shooting in 2012.

And they demolish the school and rebuilt and the school that they built was all based on biophilic design and it's just it's stunning because and they did it because they wanted a sense of safety and security but connection and beauty in there and it's even like on the on the walls the you know the fabric they've created sort of trees patterns and like a leaf pattern on the floor and they have little Treehouse, breakout rooms, sort of knocks and lighting and you know, it's all and rain gardens out the front like it's quite a stunning school, that their happiest way

Matt Morley

you start to see how biophilic design really sits within perhaps a slightly wider concept around wellbeing, designing and creating spaces for physical and mental well being, you mentioned, prisons, well being designed biophilic design and prisons may not necessarily be two things we'd associate together, but that's why I wanted to ask you about it. So tell us, how does that work?

Dr. Jana Soderlund

Yeah, well, typically prisons, you know, the, and this is the pushback you get from prison people is that they're in there to be punished, right. So they go in, and their cells, you know, and prisons, they're pretty harsh places, and just all you know, brick and concrete and hardage. So there's some great work done by a woman, she started to work with gardens, but then she ended up doing some research. And it's called the Blue Room. And it works with supermax prisoners in prison in, in Oregon, and they just showed videos of nature.

So when a prisoner is getting agitated, or they have to transfer or something, they'll go and they'll watch videos, and they have the ones they prefer the prisoners have and they become more compliant stress rates go before also the guards, this the staff, their stress rates reduce, and all of that, and they've found it's just been quite amazing the difference in behaviour.

Now Scandinavia, they have learned to do prisons, they have a lot of biophilic design within their prisons, and make sure there's lighting and, and use colour, and the shapes and forms and you know, curved areas and artwork and all of that, and they have low recidivism rates, you know, less reoffending people and because what, ultimately, if you wanting to rehabilitate, and help someone, then don't put them in a stressful, you know, Cade box if you know, concrete and break, which is I've talked to prisoners, and they they're very stressed when they can't get a view or anything. So they're trying to, you know, to change teach new behaviours, or help with learning in while they're stressed. Same with schools, you know, you need to feel relaxed. And once you've stress read reduces your cognitive functioning improves.

Matt Morley

As I understand it, the issue around staff workers in prisons is it's really urgent in the US at the moment. And the idea that creating a space not just for the, for the prisoners, but for those employed within the prisons that is slightly more amenable to long shifts, stressful city incredibly stressful situations.

So it's there's there's almost the two sides to the argument, right? But also thinking about the staff who have to spend their days and they're dealing with what can only be a difficult, yeah, social context. So I think it's clear, there are many ways we can we can think about biophilic design within the context of a city. I just wanted to close with one question about your book, I downloaded the the teaser the other day. So read the first book. Tell us a little bit about that, and how you how you came to it. And it's obviously out there in the world. How's that been going with the book? Are you working on anything new in terms of publications,

Dr. Jana Soderlund

I have a few papers published and ones just about to be published more about the how to implement biophilic design based on my research. So the book came about, through my research for my PhD, and I looked into their history, that's where I looked into the history of biophilic design. But to do this, I went I travelled north America, and I interviewed a lot of the leaders in the field like Stephen Keller, and where biophilic design had been implemented to find out why, you know, what, what, what was the driver, the initial driver for us, and that that was really interesting, you know, talking to people I think I did 30 Odd interviews, but they're, they're written up as sort of stories, conversational stories, and I learned a lot and had some fabulous conversations.

But you know, out of that, you could see the see the evolution of it and how, you know, I got those initial drivers of whether it was stormwater management or urban heat, but the ripple effect And, and then discovering the multiple benefits and the from that I made a framework to how to mainstream it. So, you know, that's it's all in the book, but I've written it as a you know, so you learn a lot about biophilic design, but also as an easy read, you know, to hear the stories and their discussions and people's ideas about, you know, a bit about aesthetics, because I guess that's one of the big things about biophilic design, too, that I haven't mentioned is the beauty. That's very important to us. And we respond to beauty, you know, and aesthetic.

So I've seen lots of high rated LEED buildings or six star here, you know, energy efficient, but they leave out the biophilic design, they leave out that human connection, and they're not really sustainable because people don't, you know, defined. They might meet all their energy targets, but they don't meet the human targets and when people in a beautiful place or connecting to a building, then they're less likely to want to go to work.

Matt Morley

So that's an important point to close on. I think let's draw a line under it. Thank you so much for your time.