winning the mental game in physical activity programs with martin ebner
Welcome to episode 053 of the Green & Healthy Places podcast, in which we explore the themes of sustainability and wellbeing in real estate and hospitality today.
This week i’m in my home town of Barcelona, Spain talking to health and fitness entrepreneur Martin Ebner.
Martin is the Founder of Ebylife Personal Training and Fitness Solutions that include diet plans, training programs and what is now a fairly dominant Google ranking in Barcelona’s fitness scene.
We discuss:
what needs to happen to activate a fitness facility in an office or residential development in order to extract full value from it
the importance of being in a state of receptivity to start and stick to a new fitness program
intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation factors
real estate developers building gyms vs occupant demand for physical activity
automaticity and setting medium to long-term physical activity goals
aiming for physical activity as an enjoyable experience
solo physical activity vs accompanied or led physical activity
sustainable physical activity in the medium-term
psychographic profiles in physical activity
group fitness as a motivator for physical activity?
adjusting physical activity programs for fitness levels
Matt Morley - wellbeing champion
I'd like to start with a question around something that I'm peripherally conscious of, but no doubt, to some extent probably tried to ignore, which is when we're creating healthy buildings and interiors for people to spend their days in, or perhaps live in, if it's a wellness residential development, or to work in, if it's a healthy office development, sometimes it can be a bit too easy even for me to say, ’well, we're going to provide access to a facility for exercise, yoga, fitness, whether that's on site or off site, and then the job is done’.
The issue I see is that the facility, once open, then may or may not get much use. And if it’s not getting much use, in the end, it comes back to me because the client justifiably says - ‘you recommended this as part of your healthy building strategy but the gym is always empty now we’re operational! What do we need to do? Should we have programming?’
And I think where I wanted to go with you in today’s discussion, was the inner process at an individual’s psychological level, why are people starting and sticking with a program vs someone who has access to a gym but that doesn’t convert into regular attendance. From your experience as an expert coach, what are the broad themes in terms of why people start a program and how you get them to keep on that path once they’re on it?
Martin Ebner - fitness expert barcelona
Well, yes, as you say, I don't think providing a space, it's enough to convince the majority of people to work out especially people that don't already work out. I have a lot of clients that work for, for big companies, and they have access to facilities, but for one reason or another they don't use them or don't take advantage of them so they employ me outside of their place of work to train them.
I think it may be comes from maybe a lack of education, or the motivation simply isn't there for them to use the gym. Most people need to be in a state of readiness to begin a training program, the majority of the time, it comes from an extrinsic motivation.
So maybe to get fit for a summer, to get six pack abs, to get a bigger chest or whatever it is. And that would be enough to get them to start a program, but rarely enough to get them to continue.
My job as a trainer once they've started is to get them to appreciate all of the intrinsic motivators of exercise. So feeling more energetic or feeling great when you're working out or sleeping better. I think these tend to be the factors that help people get into an exercise routine and stick to it. So like I say, I don't think providing a fitness space as part of a healthy building plan is enough, I think a degree of accompanying education is needed.
activating fitness facilities within a healthy building
Matt Morley
So you've made the distinction there between the first step into the gym, or the first point of contact with a personal trainer, by which stage something has gone on - they client knows they want so make a change. And that's typically coming from either internal or more likely external motivation, which ultimately suggests it doesn't matter how beautiful the gym, fitness room or yoga space I might design for them as part of a healthy building, by itself it likely isn’t enough!
If we dig into those intrinsic drivers, we quickly start to deploy the language of workplace wellness,and we're trying to encourage people to start exercising for the corollary benefits of better sleep, for example, you sleep better, you rest, you recover, you sleep, you come back stronger the next day, you're more productive, you have more energy.
So I completely see there is a piece of education and communication needed around that to the building occupants but what about after that first step through the door and those first few weeks? Is there then an interim phase where you're trying to get them over the hump from coming through the door to the stickiness effect when a client starts to get hooked? I imagine quite a few clients might drop off.
setting realistic goals in a fitness program
Martin Ebner
Yes. So I think people very often come to me with unrealistic fitness goals. So the industry, in general sort of promises, significant results physically or aesthetically, in a very short space of time. We’re quite lazy, in general, and I think we want to get maximum results with the minimum amount of effort.
So it's really my job to set realistic expectations. Yes, it's very nice to train for aesthetic reasons. But it's quite important for me as well to dig into the reasoning behind why they're so obsessed with improving their aesthetics. I think a lot of people believe that if they look better, they're going to feel better, or if they get to a certain weight, their life will automatically feel better. But from my experience, that's very often the opposite of what happens.
So my goal as a trainer is to try and set realistic expectations and encourage consistency. Over things are a little bit more extreme. And obviously, over my life and my experience as a trainer that has changed also, I used to quite enjoy training for aesthetics, for example. But it's, not necessarily something that is going to allow you to get into a routine and stick to it. Because a lot of the time, your expectations are far greater than what you think you can achieve. In the time that perhaps you've given yourself.
real estate developers building gyms vs occupant demand for physical activity
Matt Morley
It does. What I'm seeing is, effectively two very different reasons for gym facilities going in to office buildings and residential developments - there is the perspective of the employer or the landlord who to some extent wants (or feels obliged to) encourage a healthy occupant experience, no doubt partly nudged along by healthy building standards such as WELL Building Standard.
That decision, taken from above, may or may not be supported by demand from below., from the building occupants themselves - although one hopes more and more people are training regularly nowadays!
In the end though, the actual drivers to physical activity are, for most people more internally oriented, to do with aesthetics, their sense of self worth, and their confidence in social environments, I think that could partly explain the challenge of getting these facilities to a point of respectable usage figures (that often have a limited catchment audience of the building occupants - unlike a commercial gym with a far wider radius of potential clients).
What happens on the path to ‘automaticity’, where physical activity becomes almost self reinforcing, where it no longer needs to be pushed by some external factor but is a pleasure in itself? If you've got a good coach or a good fitness program to follow is that a guarantee of long-term success?
automaticity and setting medium to long-term physical activity goals
Martin Ebner
No. I think that's the million dollar question. I suppose we could use our ourselves as examples. Right? So I don't know at what point in my life exercise became so essential to my wellbeing. And I don't necessarily know how that happened. But I think, again, being realistic with your expectations is very important.
So the people that have the greatest success when it comes to, to fitness, are the people that are able to do it consistently. And they have the right reasons to exercise - so the clients that tend to have the most success aren't the ones that are coming to me and saying, I want to be this weight by this time. So that can look great for summer, okay, because it's a very short term goal.
A lot of people just assume that after the 12 weeks that’s it, they don't need to continue, or they take the route of going so extreme for the 12 weeks, they achieve enough. And then after the 12 weeks, they stop entirely and then that's it.
So yes, I think it's the people that come to me, and they just want to feel good. And they enjoy the workout. And I don't necessarily have to push them so hard, because the motivational factor isn't to get a six pack, it's to feel good.
Matt Morley
There you're talking effectively about a hormone release. Now isn't that a universal? A lot of people talk about that rush after a HIIT workout, for example, you just get this hit of endorphins. And it can last for a good half a day where you're just feeling an amazing afterglow effect that can positively impact on productivity at work for example, not to mention concentration levels and mood..
Now, you may or may not crash later n if you don’t refuel or aren’t accustomed to that type of high intensity exercise, but how much of that experience is at least potentially universal? Do you see that they're just some people who are more in tune with that than others?
aiming for physical activity as an enjoyable experience
Martin Ebner
I think it depends on the experience of exercise. So I think you're assuming the exercise feels good at the time. And for a lot of people, it really doesn't. So for you and I probably does, we've learned to appreciate pain, appreciating scum for accepting discomfort thriving on it, enjoying it. But for a lot of people that aren't necessarily fit, it can feel very uncomfortable.
So again, I think my job if I get a new client is to create a collection of enjoyable experiences for them. So they keep coming back. So I see this in gyms all the time, it's something that really frustrates me is I'll see these trainers, and they'll push the client to the point of dizziness, feeling faint, wanting to vomit. And if that is your first experience of working out or going to the gym, that you will never go back and do it again.
So I get lots of people when they come to a hated exercise. So what do you hate about, I ask? I just don't like how it feels, in my view is always done something that I dislike to push too hard initially, I think it takes a bit of time to build up. And you get used to that pain and that discomfort. And that starts to be a motivator. And you start to enjoy that feeling.
But initially I don't think it exercise unless you do it. Right, which is always what I aim to achieve with new clients, it's doesn't necessarily always feel great. So I think instinctually, you're not going to keep returning to something that is hard. And that is a challenge. And that doesn't necessarily feel good initially.
Solo physical activity vs accompanied or led physical activity
Matt Morley
That's where the difference between working with a PT working with a trainer on a one to one basis and just kind of starting to work out alone in the gym, with or without some knowledge. Perhaps someone has an issue with a squat, they just don't have the mobility to squat and doesn't feel good. So they stay away from it. And the squat never gets gets attempted again. And you can easily avoid it if you're training by yourself.
Or if you're in a group class that repeatedly asked you to do a particular movement. Maybe you just don't go back, right? Whereas when you're working with a PT and you and I have trained, there's nowhere to hide, and when you come up against a block a blockage, you find a workaround. And you make a note mentally, right, there's an issue there with hip or ankle mobility. Let's come back to that.
I'm going to push you on the timeline point because I think what you're talking about feels to me like there's a medium term hump somewhere around three or five months in terms of getting someone into the groove.
Sustainable physical activity in the medium-term
Martin Ebner
Absolutely. I think depending on your experience, your fitness level, age, etc. You tend to achieve or be able to achieve a lot initially when you start training. So if you don't know what you're doing, you might not be able to achieve it nearly as quickly but if you train with a trainer so you're just starting exercise for the first time or returning after a spell out, you can certainly achieve a lot very, very quickly. And that I think for a lot of people, it's very motivational.
But that also creates a problem because it's not sustainable, you plateau big time. So I think what what people tend to see is within the first three to six months, again, incredible results, they can achieve a lot, and then drastically slows down.
But hopefully, that's when the intrinsic motivators come into play, you're sleeping better, you're able to eat more, you feel great at that time, you know, it's a moment that you can de stress. So I think that's when it starts to, to sort of these motivators start to kick in, and you can begin to establish a much longer sort of habit, as opposed to start and stop.
Psychographic profiles in physical activity
Matt Morley
In your experience working one to one with clients, if you've identified certain personality types, because I think we touched on it a few minutes ago, the idea of, you know, almost seeking out diveadversityrsity, and there's a certain personality type, it's not masochistic, but to some extent, where we're heading deliberately towards the pain, we're seeking it out.
A 50k trail run on a Sunday morning, no one's asking me to do it, I go do it, because I kind of like the suck to kind of enjoy it on some weird level, I know it's gonna be awkward. And I'm probably come home and in all sorts of trouble. But I do it. There's something in there.
I'm no alpha male, but there must be certain personality types that you've seen whereby you're able to find that button and make it switch. And then I'm guessing there are others that are perhaps more challenging in terms of finding a way to connect better, how do you how do you adapt? How do you get into that? Because you're able to work one to one with clients, but like, What's that process in terms of trying to find their levers, their, their buttons to switch?
Martin Ebner
Sure. I think I'm in a very fortunate position where I can No, choose the sort of client I take on. Most recently. The sort of clients or take on aren't necessarily into extremes, perhaps that yourself. And personally, I'm not really into extremes either. I'm much more about consistency, and finding balance. And that's changing. Obviously, it's ice age. But like I said, the most important thing for me is to establish sort of realistic goals. And then to create a collection of positive experiences. So they can continue and one to continue to train forever.
So I don't necessarily get the sort of clients that are wanting to run 100 miles. I don't know if these people tend to seek the help of personal trainers, I think you don't necessarily get somebody that that would approach me that's never exercised before and says I want to run 50 miles in the did then I would probably say let's start with five. And then once you get to five, you feel good. With five miles, you can go for a 10 and build up that way. So I think less about extreme goals and all about moderation. And then you can expand upon that. As your confidence and your experience grows.
Matt Morley
It makes sense. I think the there's also something cumulative about it. I certainly found over 25 odd years of of training that yeah, you do start to look for, to some extent, the occasional peak, the occasional extreme and challenges and I think that's why you get so many middle aged men doing triathlons and Ironman, because yeah, we're kind of hunting, we were looking for a next big thing, or switching around and trying other other sports, but I can totally see that the bulk of the market for you.
And in fact, I think specifically when you're looking at say, trying to create healthy workplaces in the workforce, the majority of people need what you've just described, which is low. Let's just keep it simple and get you from point A to point C person through point B which is stickiness kicking in.
measurable results in physical activity plans
So when you look at measurable results do you have universal data points for that? Or is that also specific according to the type of person and the reasons they came to you originally?
Martin Ebner
Yes, I think it, it depends on the client, a lot of them don't tend to need to know, obviously, I keep record and track of all of the clients so that we can see or I can see their progression. I tried to discourage people to focus on weight, or body fat percentages, things like that, I think that that is quite an unhealthy view.
So I have a client who is quite obsessed with weight, and body fat percentages. And once I get to this body fat percentage, and you know, I always challenging him, to give me a good reason as to why when he gets to this, it's, he's going to feel any better. So for me, I tend to focus a little bit more on quality over quantity.
So a measurable result, for me might be technique. So I'm at, you know, what you've trained with me once. For me, I give quite a lot of importance to to the technique. So it might be a client, when I first get them can do a squat. And then after six weeks, they can do a squat perfect. And that for me would be a great result. And then from there, you can obviously begin to build upon the repetitions, build up the volume, build up the weight, etc. But each person is a bit different.
And I think a lot of my clients, again, they don't need to necessarily know the numbers or the figures or how much they have done. And I don't necessarily need to see the specifics either. It's more of that progression that I see in their ability to perform. And also how they feel I get a lot of art pleases me when when a client comes to me, I went to the supermarket and walked up the hill with too heavy shopping bags. So that would be something that nobody would train for ever. It's, it's a nice benefit.
You know, these benefits you don't necessarily notice. But then you look back on, you're like, wow, I've slept eight hours every night for the last week, I haven't done that forever. And these are a lot of the things I aim for now. With my clients, I was going to say also that a lot of the clients are getting now are maybe middle aged, and they've spent most of their lives making poor lifestyle choices. And something may have happened to them. And they've realized that they're not eating anymore, they can't eat the way they do. Or maybe they've had a health scare. And that is enough for them to start an exercise program and worrying more about their health.
group fitness as a motivator for physical activity?
Matt Morley
Clearly the group fitness revolution and boutique fitness studios over the last 10-15 years in most European and US capitals, primarily, it's just been game changing in terms of encouragement in terms of motivation, in terms of getting people to do things that they perhaps would never have tried to do. I mean, from CrossFit, all the way through to the yoga boom. There's just more out there in terms of group class and motivation.
But clearly, I think what I'm getting from you is that that may not work for people at a certain life phase who've been through certain things previously. And they're kind of having now to pay the debt on those cumulative results. And something does change at a certain age. And I think also around simply like how one lives, one's life, and the responsibilities we all have, and so on. It's just not necessarily convenient to work around a class timetable.
I think that's also where the PT really comes into its own around it being a little bit more tailored towards that person's individual requirements. And that might also then align with a demographic not say, can't work for an answer, like a 25 year old graduate just out of university, but it's much more likely that person has a spin studio membership or does yoga in group classes. Right? Sure. Surely that divide?
Martin Ebner
Absolutely. I think it depends on the sort of person who you are. I mean, I I don't really enjoy training in a group have done it, I did a little bit of CrossFit. And it pissed me off. people shouting at me to do more, I think, again, CrossFit isn't a great example, because I think a lot of these classes are very extreme.
So it's getting more bang for your buck and less time. And you go in and, you know, CrossFit is an interesting example, because there's a lot about it, which I think is fantastic. I'm not going to say too much about external, there's a lot of people that are diehard CrossFitters.
But I think, for a beginner to go into a CrossFit class, and, you know, unless they're physically prepared enough to do it, it can be quite dangerous. And I think that can be the case with quite a lot of group classes as well. And, and yes, I mean, I suppose I believe in queer tailored approach to fitness, I think everybody is quite different. I think there's a lot of great things that come from training as part of a group, it's community, it's motivation, these things are all great.
But I think it's unlikely that you will see as a significant results when you're training with the goals of a group as opposed to the goals of yourself, right. So again, if I was to go to a group class, I'm obviously and I have the education and the experience to know that if there was an exercise in there that wasn't suitable for my back, because I've gone some compression in my spine, I could work around it that somebody that didn't know, wouldn't know and would do the exercise anyway.
And that could, could potentially be a little bit risky for them. But I appreciate the value in both. And I've seen the boom and group fitness. And I think it's wonderful, it looks so much fun. That's just not necessarily my style. And I don't think it's motivational for everybody.
Matt Morley
I think the output that I'm getting from our conversation is when looking at a workplace wellness program that is really comprehensive. And that offers a 360 approach. From nutrition to hydration through to exercise and even what we call active design in the workplace, things like we're we're standing out on a standing desk, using the stairs instead of using the lift, etcetera, there are things we can do to encourage people to be a bit more active when they're at work.
And I think a one size fits all approach to that fitness component. And increasingly, the fitness component is on the table. It wasn't previously around the workplace, but I think it is then now it can be all too easy just to say right or have a yoga class might have a hit class. And it'll be you know, something along the lines of TRX and bodyweight training, which is cool, there's less likely have less likelihood of any injuries. But that's often as far as it goes.
I think where I'm interested in is a more variegated approach that allows for different needs and requirements according to people's life phase and also where they're at their relationship with exercise. I think just putting in the yoga class and the HIIT session. I just don't think it's good enough.
I think perhaps it's with a small group training, and we can we can touch on that, or having access to a PT just feels now based on what we've been discussing a much more rounded and complete offer. And then I guess people to make their own choice. If they do the group fitness thing, then they go to the class on a on a Monday. If not, they call it BT and, and work on a one to one. Right.
So I think that would be perhaps an ideal approach. I asked about small group training. How do you see that in terms of the benefits of working on a one to one and how much do you lose? If your training set three people at the same time? Do you think it can get close to that experience?
Adjusting physical activity programs for fitness levels
Martin Ebner
Ideally everybody in the group should be more or less around the same fitness level and have similar goals. So you know, if you have three people that are different fitness levels with different goals, it's not necessarily going to work because maybe the fittest member of the group is going to be held back and the person that has the least amount of experience is going to feel intimidated by so it needs to be balanced. I do small group classes, that people tend to be friends first.
So it's not public groups. I don't just invite anybody in they tend to come to me and we established our goals and there are ways that you can do it. S
o there's ways that you can train where you can have fitter members in the group and they do more you know attends to the internet. repetitions would be, you know, 30 seconds as opposed to 10 repetitions and that person could do as much or as little as they like from that time, for example, I think cost is quite important to talk about these businesses, and I'm interested to know as well, but why are they doing? Are they you know, to these big businesses, to the offer these, these services and facilities just so they can see that they do it? Or to the to they really care?
Matt Morley
So the cynical answer would be that a lot of them are signing up for, let's say, certification systems, for example, the WELL Healthy Building standard that pretty much requires that there is a component of just like as a nutrition chapter and a hydration chapter. There's also a fitness or movement chapter in particular, and then businesses are effectively encouraged to have provision for equipment, or fitness training spaces, and programming.
It’s then the level of detail around the programming - effectively what we've been talking about for the last 25 minutes - is the key piece around how you actually get it to work, to ensure the facility gets used.
So it's beyond just putting it out there. And actually, well, how can you activate that space? Or how can you fill the classes. And if it's not, often, the offer might not be completely enough? I think there's that extra layer of detail around a hybrid model between having bought or at least trying to offer some group class options, but also having access to a PT, just like nowadays, having access to a recommended mental health practitioner or therapist outside of the organization.
Or should this person if it's sort of an established relationship, I think having something along those same lines with the PT, certainly for a lot of businesses will make sense.
There's another layer to it, which is where the intrinsic benefits as you've been describing them, start to kick in and effectively help the employer as well, right?
Because you're just you've got more to give, you're more energized, is the the sort of the magic of all of this is that you don't have less energy, once you get into the trade. If it works, okay, I crashed in the evenings. During the day, I'm on fire, and I'm good, you know, it's only got my caffeine intake. Right. But you know, that's the thing. And so yes, there are collateral benefits for that, that workplace, owner, the employer, around reducing sick days around happier, healthier and more productive, primarily workforce.
And I think, so to some extent, they're doing it because they genuinely want happy staff, and it helps attract and retain talent. And there is to, to a greater or lesser extent, according to where you are, if you're in San Francisco, or LA or London, everyone's doing it, if you're not doing it, where's the person going to go somewhere where they have a gym, and a whole fitness, setup and massages on a Friday afternoon for those who need it, etc, etc, etc, or the one that doesn't.
And so there's almost a oneupmanship going on. It's a ratchet effect, and the markets moving up the markets adapting and adopting more and more of these measures. And certainly for the big guys, like investment banks and the big tech companies. If you're not playing that game, your competitor is, and they win the talent war.
And it's it's a little cynical to describe it that way, but it's happening. And the net results are that fitness and health are just becoming a much bigger piece. Obviously, it's not the main driver for why someone decides to go work for Goldman versus another bank, but it's definitely out there.
Martin Ebner
Absolutely. It's an interesting point, a wonder of its you know, for somebody that doesn't exercise, whether that's a draw for them, I wonder if that's a factor of their choosing between two big companies, or whether it's a deterrent for somebody that's unfair, something I was gonna say that I think confidence comes into as well.
So it can be very intimidating, to go to a gym or to start an exercise program when you're very unfit. And I think I get a lot of these clients that you know, I have quite a few, a few clients that work for Google, for example.
And I always wonder why they've come to me instead of using the facilities that they have, and I think that one of the reasons is a lack of confidence. It's intimidating, maybe to work out in front of there. If their work colleagues if they're the boss, for example, yeah, they might not want to show weakness.
So I think there's a lot of different factors, you know, and in the case of in the case of Google, I know that they don't have personal trainers, I think that they have access to a gym, but there's more guidance.
So yeah, you know, we've spoken about it many times, I think one of the issues with with gyms is that you go, you have no idea what you're there to do. You know, you looking at the machines, and you don't know what they do, and you're intimidated.
So you skip them altogether, and then you leave, and you never go back. So you know, this is going back a little bit. But I think it's very important to have a member of staff in these areas to help. Otherwise you get people turning up having no idea how to use anything at all. And that can be very, that can be a deterrent for them.
Matt Morley
Yeah, I mean, I think if I put myself in the shoes of the of the brand on the other side of the employer, I think I look at that I start weighing up the pros and cons of that operational cost overhead that is implicit in what you just described. And as Matt, I then come in and say, Well, look, let's look at virtual trainer options.
Let's look at subscriptions that can be available to facilitate those workouts. But effectively automated and streaming services so that there is there's a hybrid so that there's something for someone to follow. You have an A Technogym that picking up gym classes, it's 100 or the peloton fitness classes, you have a peloton bike in the gym, or you have a technology a bit of kit for 100 year, 100 euros a year, you also have the screen that can fold out away from the bank or from that main bit of kit and becomes effectively a virtual trainer. And it's something to follow. It's not ideal, but it fills that gap.
And I think again, it's something that we need to be conscious of. Because yeah, all too often there is the risk of someone who's not to use your term hasn't got the education behind them around what to do, how to do it, how often walk into a gym, happy moment, you finally made it in there, look around and you feel awkward. You don't necessarily like what you see in the mirror, or you don't want to be next to your boss on the spin bike anymore.
Someone you've had a round with earlier on over a work related issue. And yet it's complex. It's complex, and I think but those subtleties, those that level of detail is is where it needs to get to beyond just boom box ticking exercises of what we've done the gym and we've put in a yoga class and off we go.
I think that's that's my big takeaway from from this conversation that a little bit of extra thinking in terms of how that's structured and presented can go a long way.
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