Living Walls in biophilic design with UrbanStrong NYC
A conversation with Lily Turner of UrbanStrong NYC for my Green & Healthy Places podcast episode 039 on sustainability and wellbeing in real estate and interiors.
Conversation highlights
Living walls offer a myriad of environmental, psychological, physiological and economic benefits
Plants have the ability to purify the air, they should be thought of as natural air purifiers.
Plants also are wonderful noise pollution mitigators
We as living creatures share a deep affiliation with nature - this is called biophilia
green & healthy places
Welcome to episode 039 of the Green & Healthy Places podcast in which we explore the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and interiors.
I’m your host Matt Morley, Founder of Biofilico healthy buildings and Biofit wellness concepts.
This week we’re in NYC talking to Lily Turner, Director of Operations at UrbanStrong, a company providing green building technology solutions for enhanced productivity and wellness benefits.
green roofs and solar coming soon
In particular we focus on living walls and living wall dividers in this episode. Lily references Alan Burchell a couple of times, UrbanStrong’s Principal, so we have Alan lined up for a subsequent episode already when we’ll discuss solar and green roofs in urban environments. Lily meanwhile is quite the green wall expert!
biophilic design living walls
The discussion covers the health and wellness benefits of living walls within the wider context of biophilic design principles, the practical constraints of installing a living wall or, at a smaller scale, a standalone living wall divider, moss walls as a hassle-free alternative in low or no light scenarios, the air purifying, noise reducing and mood enhancing benefits of these installations, as well as the interplay between green and healthy building certifications, city wide legislation and the type fo interior greenery solutions offered by UrbanStrong.
If like me you normally listen to your podcasts sped up to 1.5 normal speed you may want to bring this one back down, we’re in Brooklyn here people, so expect a short, punchy convo with just a touch of the borough’s background noise for authenticity.
If you enjoy this episode, please hit subscribe, new episodes are released every week. Lily’s contact details are in the show notes, check out urbanstrong.com now let’s get into it.
Matt Morley
Why don't we start with you describing the showroom that you're currently sitting in?
Lily Turner
Yeah, sure. It's amazing. I come every day and walk into a jungle, which I'm very thankful for. But our studio / showroom is located in the iconic Brooklyn Navy Yard in Brooklyn, New York.
Urbanstrong is technology agnostic, meaning we offer several different greenwall technologies depending on project goals, or design parameters, or of course budget. That being said, Our studio is full of different living law systems, small and large, everything ranging from $300, to what could easily be a $100, or $2000 $200,000 green wall system. And they all feature different irrigation designs too.
Matt Morley
That's a key thing, right? The idea of the different irrigation systems on it, there's a lot of different solutions out there. So we're mostly talking about vertical gardens today, and their various shapes and sizes, right. So before we jump off into any other directions, why don't we talk about those living walls and the systems that are out there, and which ones you work with ?
Lily Turner
Yeah, so like I said, we offer a range of different living wall technologies as part of our biophilic design offer, we have everything from the DIY, or I like to refer to as the ‘PIY’ - plant it yourself.
They're fairly intuitive designs and all encompassing. So really, all that's required for these little plant frames is that you mount them to the wall using nothing more than a couple drywall screws and anchors like you'd be mounting a shelf or a painting.
Then there's dedicated pockets for you to plant these four to six inch potted plants in and the irrigation design with those systems are capillary wicking action. So it's no different than a tiki torch concept. You know, there's a cloth or string draped in a little reservoir of water, and then it creeps up the cloth and the plants roots get the drink that way.
Matt Morley
In terms of constraints when installing a wall and then keeping it alive in the medium term. I know there are some horror stories out there about walls that die and then need to be replaced. In your experience, what are the hurdles that someone should be aware of before jumping in to a living wall purcase. So just being conscious of what precautions can be taken in advance so that everything runs smoothly.
Lily Turner
Sure, of course, with any living thing, and let's just focus on plants for today's call, water and light sources are required to keep plants not just surviving but thriving. So of course, a reliable and somewhat automated irrigation design is necessary for all living life.
If you don't have immediate access to plumbing, which oftentimes retrofits or light renovations don't, then a recirculating irrigation solution is required, which just calls for a submersible silent pump, no different than what you'd find in a fish tank.
In terms of lighting, every living wall manufacturer designer has their own minimum or their own standard for the amount of foot candles and exposure the wall receives. For us we’re a bit higher and a little more strict on that. But we require artificial lighting to be brought into the space if there's not enough natural lighting, exposed to the wall.
Matt Morley
Is it a particular type of artificial lighting or LED?
Lily Turner
So I do want to compliment the lighting industry, they've really come a long way. A lot of people still actually think when they hear grow lights, they think of those really disruptive red and purple shining lights. But now there's a ton of amazing LED lights, metal highlight lights on the market that can match the warm interior lighting of the other fixtures, anything from like 2700 to 4000 Kelvin.
Matt Morley
So is it the intensity or the color spectrum that's of most relevance for the for the plants?
Lily Turner
It's a bit of both, you know, plants read a certain color spectrum, the reds and the purples and that is needed for them to photosynthesis sorry photosynthesize, but also a certain footcandle level is required for them to be happy. And that's even true for our low light tropical plants.
Matt Morley
So there are large format installations but you also have the smaller solutions such as standalone panels now that have integrated lights and irrigation systems, right? They're kind of complete solutions that are mobile too, correct?
Lily Turner
Right. Absolutely. I think you're referring to our mobile living wall dividers and are a lot of fun and they're increasing in popularity as well. I suggest those to designers and architects on a weekly basis, they're great for the post pandemic return to the offices. They're definitely more living and thriving than those nasty Flexi glass or acrylic partitions that you might see in spaces.
But with our mobile living little dividers, you're absolutely right, we have a LED bar that kind of cantilevers from the top, and then a water reservoir, depending on the unit can hold anywhere from 100 to 150 gallons of water. So all that's needed is a standard 120 B outlet, which is usually found in an office space, versus some of our customisable, larger living law systems that we spec, you know, we need a proper water source and cold water zones running through, we also need drainage, and then again, we need to bring in the artificial lighting. So that can get a little costly.
Matt Morley
Then effectively there's two paths. This one's where you just need a smaller scale intervention, and one where there's a bit more space available. If we take a step back then and look at the ‘why’ behind this, what sometimes ends up in conversations around Biophilia and ‘nature first’ arguments in which it's almost as if nature in itself is enough justification for doing these things as a quasi Romantic argument. What is the ROI on these living walls from your view? When you talk about biophilic design, we talk about the benefits, the wellbeing mental and physical benefits of being surrounded by or spending time close to one of these green interventions within an interior space.
Lily Turner
Yeah, I'm glad you asked about that. You know, like you said, living walls are first appreciated, and for good reason for their aesthetics. They're considered obvious striking forms of natural art. But, like you said, living walls offer a myriad of different benefits from environmental, psychological, physiological and economic benefits.
Healthy indoor air
So first, I mean, just touching on environmental benefits. Plants have the ability to purify the air, they should be thought of as natural air purifiers. And oftentimes, you know, indoor pollution levels caused by things like cleaning products, or building materials, carpets, paints, mold, can be even worse than those outdoor pollution levels.
So in most living wall systems, the plant root zone absorbs Volatile Organic Compounds such as benzene, formaldehyde, acetone, ammonia, to name a few. And it works like this, the air is actively drawn through the plants and the growing medium, and then the cleaned air is redistributed throughout the building.
And then also for environmental benefits, we like to touch on reduction in urban heat island effect, which in dense urban areas, and concrete jungles like New York City, you know, the use of plants, parks, living walls, and green roofs really work to reduce the heat by cooling the ambient temperature around.
Plants also are wonderful noise pollution mitigators. So plants can absorb about up to 40% more sound than traditional facades can.
And then, of course, increase in biodiversity with exterior living walls. This has been depleting again in dense urban areas as we continue to develop with hard materials, like concrete and glass. So living walls just provide those alternative ecological habitats for migratory species.
Biophilic design
And then for more psychological and physiological benefits, you know, people just feel more relaxed in natural settings. This is a premise to biophilic design, or just biohilia, in general.
So we as living creatures share a deep affiliation with nature, and life is attracted to other forms of life. So in this innate affinity for life, this provides opportunities for building owners and designers and architects to really foster environments which elicit positive responses from their tenants or their shoppers, workers, patients of whoever's interacting in that space.
Matt Morley
There is this balance between the yin and the yang, between the tangible, practical side around, you know, noise absorbing benefits for example, and air purifying, then the slightly harder to pin down and quantify benefits around the Biophilia hypothesis, right?
There's just this there's just this connection in all of us and within our psyche, and we just same reason why it feels good to have a quiet moment in a garden or a forest just to listen to the birds sing, you know, just occasionally to do that and be a natural animal. versus being this urban version of ourselves. And I think, you know, with enough of space with enough space given over to these green walls, you can really start to get into that. And I think that's the magic here.
Lily Turner
Absolutely. You know, we as humans are just so deeply connected and interwoven with nature and the natural world. And realizing that I mean, it is starting to become measurable, some of it can be considered or perceived as a bit of a reach. But there is substantial evidence, white papers and journals produced around productivity costs and creativity costs associated with a worker, employee retention rates is big. And then also, the ability to reduce recovery times, which I know hospitals appreciate. Not to be crass, but sometimes it's almost treated like restaurants, they want you to heal as quickly as possible turn over the bed. And when you add all that up on an annual budget that can save them hundreds of 1000s of dollars.
Matt Morley
Yet the hospital recovery rates, one is interesting, it does come up quite a lot. I mean, I think when one digs into the, you know, the original Roger Ulrich study, which I think was like mid 80s. You know, once that's asked questions of why nothing more has been done since then, in terms of creating some some solid data because we all go back to that same study that was done quite a while ago.
But then you see what's happening in places like Singapore and Hong Kong, where they're starting now to integrate no serious levels of biophilia into their latest hospitals. And and that's for me a real sign that there's there's a commitment on that level, and that there's a sense of, of tangible benefits, tangible health benefits around those recovery times an offer sort of the mental, the mental health piece, you mentioned, the air purifying benefits.
Do you need to choose therefore specific air purifying species within the plant walls? In order to do that?
Lily Turner
Sure, that's a great question. And that goes back to our initial assessment with a client and architect and just really trying to identify the goals of the product, or the project and sorry, so if the client is really set on air purification, then we will incorporate species such as Chinese evergreen, peace lily, Snake plants, ZZ plants, some species are known more for their indoor purification than others. And that's simply due to the kind of electro magnetic charge in the air with the dust particles and the plant leaves.
So they're actually sucking the dust and harmful particulate matter out of the air, if not to their roots. But you can also see it on their leaves, too. So what might look like water spots, if you look closely, it's actually just just built up. And those leaves also as a part of, sorry, that leaf cleaning is also a part of our maintenance that we do. So the plants can again, properly photosynthesize sides, and we're not kind of filtering their life that they received and also use.
Matt Morley
So what you reference there is the idea of having to ask very common theme, but the idea of needing to, on a case by case project by project basis, establish priorities around planetary and people health and well being. And it's I think it's it's one of the toughest parts of doing what we do, which is that sometimes it's just not possible to do everything and to sort of hit the high note, both in terms of environmental sustainability and human health and wellbeing and sometimes somewhere along the line, there's a call to be made, for example - we really need to focus on indoor air quality in this office environment.
You also have preserved moss walls, which in some ways, I think create a similar visual effect, perhaps not quite the same, and yet still very much part of this sort of what how can we bring a biophilic component and to pretty much cover an entire wall or as a panel. So how do you see those and how do you typically communicate around them versus having a real living walk because the moss is effectively preserved? Right?
Preserved moss walls
Lily Turner
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, I can't speak for other companies, but our preserved moss is harvested according to ecological practices.
So the moss is preserved using a food grade safe glycerin and then natural dyes are pumped back into a different species to really give that vibrancy, but it very much, I mean, you can almost think of it as taxidermy, right? I mean, very much of the texture is still there and The color and, and it does also still have that Woody smell, especially initially when we install a larger scale moss wall. But moss walls are great. And for the longest time, you know, I always kept them in my back pocket, I just had such a love and admiration for living walls. And that's how I got my start. But I really did a ton of moss walls just due to last year, you know, new construction was was halted all over the world. So we really had to come up with a retrofit solution.
For the people that still work continuing to design their interior homes or, or spaces are preserved. Moss doesn't need any water or light to thrive, which is really great. I won't say it's zero maintenance, because I have installed mass walls in lobbies before and just when you're handling especially in New York City, when hundreds of people are going through that lobby, there is a bit of foot traffic. And sometimes the moss walls can take a beating if people want to tug and pull on things, you know, even as adults were so curious beings, but I really do think, yeah, there's a time and place for every system. And if I was, you know, consulting with a client, and they said, Hey, we can't give you any water light, then I would absolutely and I do absolutely recommend our preserved Moss, because it's a great way of incorporating still a natural element into our built environment, which is ultimately the goal.
Matt Morley
I've used them in the past on gym design projects where, you know, there's a brief around biophilic design or biophilic interiors. But as is often the case with a gym, or some kind of a wellness space or physical activity space, you know, it's a lower ground, but there's no natural light, or it's sort of an internal room, where again, there's just no access to daylight. And and so they're pretty much have to flip into muscle or moss panel territory. And yeah, I think just reading between the lines, I think it's worth clarifying that there are products out there that are not of the same eco friendly standard as yours. So there are versions that are not using natural dyes, etc. So I think that's what I picked up from doing my research on particular ones that you stock. And it kind of highlighted that in my mind that, you know, there is some variety out there in terms of quality and eco friendliness, so good only for finding the right one. So to say.
Lily Turner
Yeah, absolutely, we definitely heavily that every technology that comes in, we do offer quite a range of technologies. But again, they've all been carefully considered and, you know, tried and tested before we bring them into a public or a client space.
Matt Morley
So I know it's not your areas of expertise. But I know you do also do the green roofs and the solar panels within the urban strong offering. So just as a very sort of quick overview. How do they integrate into the you typically selling? Or going in on a project with multiple strands? So sort of multiple product? offerings? Or is it and the synergies between them almost?
Green roofs
Lily Turner
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so Urbanstrong, does specialize in design, installation and ongoing maintenance for living walls and Green roofs. But we also, there's another side to our business, which Alan we'll get more into, but the financing and the technology consulting side, so we have a lot of condo or Co-Op board members come to us.
New York just incorporated a few local laws mandating that folks outfit their roofs with either solar or green roof. So a lot of people are calling us and saying, Okay, I want a green roof, oh, no, I want solar? How do I decide between what's the ROI associated. So we'll walk them through a very careful assessment, we'll ask some really high level questions mainly around the structural integrity of the roof. Just because there is a weight load associated with our different greener systems, you know, you're dealing with growing medium soil and all of that.
And also, just, again, their goals if they want, you know, if they have enough capital upfront, and they wanted to invest, then we think solar is a better option. Because right now the payback period is great. It's not just net metering. We, I'm sorry, New York just offered up this community solar program, that you can actually sell your energy back energy that you collect far beyond what the building is using. And it's a nice little passive revenue stream for, for the building owners.
Matt Morley
So there's either at that slightly more strategic level, there's, there's either something happening at a municipal or a city or state level whereby there's new registered legislation coming through and that, in a sense is designed to push the industry forward. And collectively, within the real estate interiors industry, for it to encourage more integration of natural components, I think in in a sense is doing the same type of work, but in coming at it from a different angle as the building certifications that are out there. Things like USGBC’s LEED and WELL and FITWEL that in their own way, do a similar job which is nudging us all forward particularly in real estate to work. greener and healthier solutions. So how do your particular products fit in with all that?
Green building and healthy building certifications
Lily Turner
Absolutely. And LEED and WELL are great, they're both amazing standards and organizations. And they have largely been responsible for, like you said incentivizing building owners and architects to start incorporating natural elements into their designs.
When we're discussing exterior living, long installations for LEED, several points are possible. And that's just due to reduced heat island effect, potential for water efficiency, meaning that you could harvest stormwater and work it into the irrigation design of the living wall, through collection.
And then other points, of course, are gained through optimizing energy efficiency performance, that's through thermal insulation or systems. Innovation and operation is another category and then occupant comfort. And that's all within the under the LEED umbrella. And then for the WELL building standard living walls helps satisfy three out of the set seven core concepts of that standard. So it's air mind and comfort, comfort is mostly associated with the plant's ability to mitigate noise pollution, and reduce sound in an area.
Matt Morley
So lead slightly more towards a fundamentally based around sort of planet, an environment and well coming at it from a more more human aspect, just to close them in terms of what you you have lined up and where where the business is going. And where you see yourself developing and future into the product and services like what's coming next. What's what's in the pipeline for lift, Robin strong.
Lily Turner
I mean, if you asked me last year, the answer would be completely different. I applaud urban strong, we've always remained really flexible. And our willingness to pivot I think has really helped us through especially COVID. Last year, we released an online store with a shippable, plant DIY friendly systems I was explaining earlier. And that really got us through and also connected us with consumer base.
One thing I really don't love about the living off system is that fill, there's a minimum square footage assigned to it just due to the economies of scale, and therefore there's a minimum budget that you need to have, which is can be upwards of $25,000.
So it's really excluding to the small, medium sized budgets. So we're really excited about that revenue stream that's tailored and focus more on the consumer. And then also, and this is more Alan's area of expertise or principle, but our ability to just really consult and help building owners, or property developers and condo and Co Op board members that have a budget and don't really have access to education sources and don't know really, how did they spend their money, and you know, how it fits in with our goals. So we're really excited about not just the roofing but the living wall aspect as well.
Matt Morley
Very cool. Well, we're going to line up a separate conversation with Elon to go into some of those other juicy subjects. So thanks for your time. If people want to reach out and contact you, obviously, as a website in terms of social media or other channels, what do you what are you mostly focused on?
Lily Turner
Yes, our website is great. I think on every page, we have a call to action, contact us or let's chat button. We like to consider ourselves really accessible. And we just love having these conversations. And then also our Instagram handles urban strong NYC, we post not only our projects, but our partners projects, and then just really notable products in the industry we like to put a spotlight on and just keep up to date with what the new technologies are and what you can do with these living long, greener systems. And then, of course, my personal email also should be on the website. But maybe we can post that too, in case anyone has any questions or follow up. comments on this.
Matt Morley
Awesome, Lily, thanks so much for your time today
Lily Turner
Yeah, I appreciate it, Matt. Take care. Happy Holidays, till next time!